Curse

DieInBasra · Nov 05, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Not really since it was nerfed. Shame is a significantly better skill now. It depends on the style of hex team. Sig of humil spam is a really nice option since most hex removal is put in elites nowadays, but it is hard to fit into a hex build. It is easier to revert to more strait forward forms of caster hate.

Signet of Illusions is key with price of pride in a hex team. Divert Hexes can almost completely shut down a hex team, or at least make alot of thier efforts futile, and it's worth briniging some sort of elite shutdown just for that skill.

Quote:

Light of deliverance isn't a bad skill, builds made around it are bad builds. If you are using Light of Deliverance, that normally means you want to ditch the elmo with ether prod for something more offensive.

Light of deliverance doesn't mean you have to dicth the emo, it just means your emo can use it's energy on more offensive things, gives you an extra buffer against degen teams, and gives your team a way out if your HP get's dist shot. I don't think it's that great of a skill either, but their is justification.

And it's not bad on ganks in druids and nomad. Solitude as well.

Drewfense · Nov 05, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Signet of Illusions is key with price of pride in a hex team. Divert Hexes can almost completely shut down a hex team, or at least make alot of thier efforts futile, and it's worth briniging some sort of elite shutdown just for that skill.

You misunderstood my comment. I wasn't saying to ignore hex removal, especially in the current meta where hex removal is not only more dependant on the monks but is tied into elites and signets. What I was saying is that Price of Pride is crap. Why make a monk lose 9 energy when he casts the next elite when you can use Shame to cause him to lose 13 energy when he casts his next spell. Yes Price lasts longer...but with lessened threat of instantly tiggering it, a monk can use negative energy swaps to absorb the penalty. It was a very good skill during the preview, but anet nerfed it to oblivion.

In terms of hex builds dealing with hex removal it differs depending on how many hexers you have. In a nutshell if you run 5 hexers you really need to go the dom route otherwise basic illusion and water is enough. In general though, concentrating hex removal on monks always leads to a favorable situation where if you shut down the monk, you are shutting down both the major prot/healing and hex removal of the party.

For the Light of Deliverance it is more an observation than anything. It isn't a bad skill at all. It is great versus pressure, but I often see people basing their team build around that skill. Doing so, especially since almost everyone is running pressure, is risky.

Patrograd · Nov 05, 2006, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

For the Light of Deliverance it is more an observation than anything. It isn't a bad skill at all. It is great versus pressure, but I often see people basing their team build around that skill. Doing so, especially since almost everyone is running pressure, is risky.

The team I saw using it also had HP on their runner

I havent tested it in serious play yet, so cant really comment with any authority, but I can see alot of theoretical situations, not least in split and against extreme degen pessure, and while waiting for your HP to arrive at the stand as you swap runners (if the HP is on the runner) where having it around could be a huge bonus and potentially the difference between having to pull off and split, and being able to stick it out.

At 5 energy and with reasonable spec into the attrib, you could even run it pretty comfortably on someone like a dom mesmer.

moriz · Nov 06, 2006, 04:18 AM // 04:18

i've thought of using shadow meld as a "defend and counter attack" type of skill. put it on a sword warrior with either bull's strike or "none shall pass!", you can ease a lot of melee pressure on your monks by teleporting back and disrupting their warriors, and then immediately teleport back to the frontlines and unload adrenaline on their monks.

it can also be useful in retreats: use it to catch up to your monks, build up some adrenaline, then teleport back to hit their exposed backline.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 06, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

My first thought with Light of Deliverance was to put it on a mesmer. Having a Heal Party that can't be D-shotted is extremely tempting, doubly so because of the flexibility it allows you in flagrunning. Illusion mesmers have always been strong in skirmish (especially against YAAhoos), and now that something else can provide the Heal Party support E/Mos have been providing, I can see them gaining popularity in hex builds.

edwinna elbert · Nov 09, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Wow, I can't believe how off-the-mark most of this was. Searing flames got 3/5? In retrospect, you might notice that it's actually quite popular in PvE and PvP at the moment. See also Rampage as one 2/5? Errr? Headbutt 1/5? SO a simple W/N combo that can cause dazed for ~20 seconds is useless?

So many things not even thought about in this list... Simple thievery for total monk shutdown (combine with arcane thievery + signet of Humility). No real idea of how Signet of Illusions works?

Man, writing off almost all the skills as below average is stupid.

Drewfense · Nov 09, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by edwinna elbert

Simple thievery for total monk shutdown

To steal signet of devotion....?

geeVgee · Nov 11, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

wow...what a waste of time - real brief - no ones post is significant or useful ( aside from romo who has some intelligent input)

glimmer is a 1/5 guaranteed suckage. besides running an infuser in HA, its useless. burns twice the energy for the same as WoH - unless ur dying for that 1/2 cast its pretty stupid

most of the bash on ZB is idiocracy. you can put any skill in an idiot's bar and have them screw things up.
fact of the matter is ZB > GoH, not to meantion the amazing healing power against a pressure.
the stupidest thing i read was that it can't save a spike and its risky. - yes if your an idiot monk.

a ps> ZB or even rof> ZB is a gg. use some brains?

most of the crap posted by JR is hypothetical 'if this happens' crap. the game is played out a lil differently and shit works out if u have a proper skillbar and talent. no skilled monk should be overhealing or missing out on the +10 bonus, no excuses or u shouldnt b monking ( would u let a ranger who cant interrupt 1 cast play ranger?).

overall 5/5 in game from exp. and proper handling
the crap JR is talking about happened only on my first few runs when i NUBBED IT hArDcore.
learn how to use the skill and u wont run into that bulls*t

P.S> Divert Hexes lookin sexy as well- however a waste of space if not playing vs hex.

P.S. > this guy knows whats hes talkin about. 100%

Quote:

Originally Posted by edwinna elbert

Wow, I can't believe how off-the-mark most of this was. Searing flames got 3/5? In retrospect, you might notice that it's actually quite popular in PvE and PvP at the moment. See also Rampage as one 2/5? Errr? Headbutt 1/5? SO a simple W/N combo that can cause dazed for ~20 seconds is useless?

So many things not even thought about in this list... Simple thievery for total monk shutdown (combine with arcane thievery + signet of Humility). No real idea of how Signet of Illusions works?

Man, writing off almost all the skills as below average is stupid.

JR · Nov 11, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by geeVgee

most of the crap posted by JR is hypothetical 'if this happens' crap.

No, it is based on actually using these skills in high level GvG.

...Who are you?

Neo-LD · Nov 11, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

a ps> ZB or even rof> ZB is a gg. use some brains?

most of the crap posted by JR is hypothetical 'if this happens' crap. the game is played out a lil differently and shit works out if u have a proper skillbar and talent. no skilled monk should be overhealing or missing out on the +10 bonus, no excuses or u shouldnt b monking ( would u let a ranger who cant interrupt 1 cast play ranger?).

overall 5/5 in game from exp. and proper handling
the crap JR is talking about happened only on my first few runs when i NUBBED IT hArDcore.
learn how to use the skill and u wont run into that bulls*t

Zealous Benidiction is ok but cant compare to Blessed Light. Fact of the matter is that ZB is conditional on you getting your ass kicked, at which point it will only delay the inevitable. If you are a 'good monk' and have a good team, you will almost never get into a situation where ZB would actually be useful. More often than not it will just sit on your bar, useless, because all the other skills on your bar are better, except in those rare bleak moments where your entire team is about to die and youre screwed anyways. ZB has no utility, no removal, nothing but a heal; and in most situations I would rather heal with GoH, tbh. I really, really cant see wasting an elite slot on this when I could go B-Light.

Most of the "hypothetical bullshit" that JR and other people have been mentioning actually does happen on a fairly consistent basis - you cant just dismiss those arguments all at once with one sentence. I have a hunch that just because you're one of those guys that thinks hes something special because he can hold his team up against rank 500 teams without breaking a sweat. Maybe you should try ZB against teams that actually know what theyre doing and see if ZB actually works then. Letting your allies get low intentionally so ZB can trigger eventually backfires with deaths. Thats the cold, hard, undeniable truth.

NinjaKai · Nov 11, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Zealous Benidiction is ok but cant compare to Blessed Light. Fact of the matter is that ZB is conditional on you getting your ass kicked, at which point it will only delay the inevitable. If you are a 'good monk' and have a good team, you will almost never get into a situation where ZB would actually be useful. More often than not it will just sit on your bar, useless, because all the other skills on your bar are better, except in those rare bleak moments where your entire team is about to die and youre screwed anyways. ZB has no utility, no removal, nothing but a heal; and in most situations I would rather heal with GoH, tbh. I really, really cant see wasting an elite slot on this when I could go B-Light.

Personally I prefer life sheath for protection. I'll let the healer monk worry about HP. As a protection monk my job is to reduce and reverse damage. Not to heal.

Neo-LD · Nov 11, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaKai

Personally I prefer life sheath for protection. I'll let the healer monk worry about HP. As a protection monk my job is to reduce and reverse damage. Not to heal.

Top level backlines do not have the luxury of assigning one monk the job of healing and one monk the job of "protecting." Both monks have to be able to do both. There are plenty of non-elite protection spells (shield of absorbtion, prot spirit, etc) that allow you to not use your elite there, and save it for something more worthwhile like B-Light.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 11, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Neo is correct.

The basic problem is that the Healing line is mostly made up of PvE skills. Pure healing monks have sucky self defense options and can only deal with damage slowly and reactively. They're reasonably efficent if damage is reliable and always on someone else, but in actual PvP their lack of adaptability makes them pretty useless.

Meanwhile, Protection is full of all kinds of effects that are actually useful. Mend/Dismiss condition is a nice heal in addition to clearing what may be a dangerous condition like Deep Wound. Protective Spirit/Spirit Bond can reduce any kind of large-packet damage and they're awesome spike counters. Shield Of Absorption is 7 seconds of God Mode for any focused target. Meanwhile, the skills worth bringing from the healing line either work better on a /Mo (Heal Party) or don't require a huge spec to be effective (Infuse Health.)

That's the reason you saw Boon Prots and why you're now seeing Blessed Lights who splash into healing for a single direct-healing spell. Monks want to run the good skills in Protection and not the crappy skills in healing. BL + GoH lets them do that without sacrificing too many skillslots or losing the ability to throw a direct heal when it's called for.

Thomas.knbk · Nov 11, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

geeVgee
pre-searing cadet

This guy si just too funny for words. He just walks on the forum with no background, and tells one of the most respected members he's talking trash, with no way to back up his argument. I bet he's going to say next that he actually is in a top guild, just doesn't want to tell us which one :P
So, I don't think Healer's Boon is that good actually (talking HA, in GvG it plainly sucks because it only affects healing prayers). It lets you heal for 50% more, but takes 25% of your energy. More in fact if you factor in the initial cost. That means you heal for less then 125% of what you'd normally heal for. I can get better results with Peace and Harmony. Even better ones with edrain/MoR
Also, there are some wicked deep wound sources in NF: Cruel Spear is like the old Eviscerate, only with a spear, and Wounding Strike.....I just don't know what to say on that one.

some guy · Nov 11, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Decapitate deserves a higher score, it kills in pvp.

Seamus Finn · Nov 12, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by geeVgee

wow...what a waste of time - real brief - no ones post is significant or useful ( aside from romo who has some intelligent input)

glimmer is a 1/5 guaranteed suckage. besides running an infuser in HA, its useless. burns twice the energy for the same as WoH - unless ur dying for that 1/2 cast its pretty stupid

most of the bash on ZB is idiocracy. you can put any skill in an idiot's bar and have them screw things up.
fact of the matter is ZB > GoH, not to meantion the amazing healing power against a pressure.
the stupidest thing i read was that it can't save a spike and its risky. - yes if your an idiot monk.

a ps> ZB or even rof> ZB is a gg. use some brains?

most of the crap posted by JR is hypothetical 'if this happens' crap. the game is played out a lil differently and shit works out if u have a proper skillbar and talent. no skilled monk should be overhealing or missing out on the +10 bonus, no excuses or u shouldnt b monking ( would u let a ranger who cant interrupt 1 cast play ranger?).

overall 5/5 in game from exp. and proper handling
the crap JR is talking about happened only on my first few runs when i NUBBED IT hArDcore.
learn how to use the skill and u wont run into that bulls*t

P.S> Divert Hexes lookin sexy as well- however a waste of space if not playing vs hex.

P.S. > this guy knows whats hes talkin about. 100%

That was good for a laugh. Somewhere out there there's a monk owning face with ZB whose teamates safely hit under 50 hps relably and NEVER DIE. Because only NooB monx have ppl dropping in PVP OMG WTF!!! Oddly, I haven't seen this monk on any of teh top 10 guilds so he must laddering very slowly. BTW, people who say glimmer is garbage seem as uninformed as those who think its teh best thing ever... and the real dummies think teh 1/4 casting time is pointless...

Byron · Nov 12, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

6/5. Probably my new favorite monk elite. The only downside is that it's hard to build a Divert bar with a big self heal. Honestly, when I think through the useage of skills, I can see Blessed Light monks becoming extinct.

Yeah, my opinions have changed very much on divert hexes. After running it, yes, but also after seeing QQ run it so effectively. I've changed my score on it to 4/5, GG.

Zuranthium · Nov 12, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Zealous Benidiction is ok but cant compare to Blessed Light. Fact of the matter is that ZB is conditional on you getting your ass kicked, at which point it will only delay the inevitable. If you are a 'good monk' and have a good team, you will almost never get into a situation where ZB would actually be useful.

If you're facing a 'good team' they should have the capability to kick ass and survive well, just as your team should. It comes down to the team whose monks get overpressured first and allow kills to happen. If someone is under 50% it's because they are getting spiked or because of pressure that has built up while the monks were healing other people. ZB solves either problem for 0 energy, which is efficiency that helps your team to outpressure the opposition.

However, it's not something that can be used for every single team build out there. Some builds really need BL for the hex removal versatility or flat out Divert Hexes.

JR · Nov 12, 2006, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

If you're facing a 'good team' they should have the capability to kick ass and survive well, just as your team should. It comes down to the team whose monks get overpressured first and allow kills to happen. If someone is under 50% it's because they are getting spiked or because of pressure that has built up while the monks were healing other people. ZB solves either problem for 0 energy, which is efficiency that helps your team to outpressure the opposition.

If someone is below 50% then chances are they are already being spiked. Given the power of Heal Party you should not have party members sitting that low when playing aganist most pressure. If you do; for example playing against a very nasty Hex degen build - then I concur, ZB owns. Against a Hex build i'd rather have Divert though.

Dragannia · Nov 12, 2006, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Whats your opinion on Divert, JR? Do you think Monk primaries should carry it?